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Old 06-30-2012, 04:20 PM   #31
Naitz
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Originally Posted by quartertone View Post
Although major constraints on thought are inherent in all the monotheistic religions, the way they end up being practised depends on the society they're in. 13th-century Persia was a very progressive place for the time, with a pluralistic culture rather more open than in Iran today (thanks especially to CIA & MI6 in 1953), and was ahead of many European cultures in terms of scientific and cultural achievement. The Koran was the same then as it is now, but the society changed, and it's rather shocking to think that some Islamic societies today are actually more backward (by fairly modest standards) than in the Middle Ages. Needless to say, that's more a result of geopolitics and wars than something inherent in Middle Eastern people or their religion.
I'm not really good history-wise, but it seems to me that the Arab world had it's golden age parallel to the Central-European "Age of Enlightenment", whereas Central-Europe did develop quite a bit better. Which could essentially be because of the reduction of religious parameters taking effect on actual politics (In Europe).
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Old 06-30-2012, 04:44 PM   #32
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Im also ok with Sufism which is to Islam what Buddhism is to Hinduism, kinda. You dont even need to necesarily believe in god to follow the teachings.

Last edited by Gaybeard; 06-30-2012 at 04:48 PM..
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Old 06-30-2012, 04:46 PM   #33
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is islam a country or a religion? what have they contributed to the world? very little i suspect.
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Old 06-30-2012, 05:09 PM   #34
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Hope you're trolling.
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Old 06-30-2012, 05:25 PM   #35
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not gonna lie, some arab women are fucking hot!
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Old 06-30-2012, 06:42 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Naitz View Post
I'm not really good history-wise, but it seems to me that the Arab world had it's golden age parallel to the Central-European "Age of Enlightenment"
You're right about the first part... the European Enlightenment began in the mid-17th century, a few centuries after what I'm talking about. And yes, it was about freeing knowledge from the restrictions of religious dogma (which were particularly evident in the cases of Galileo or Copernicus). Unfortunately in this case, every cultural development is reversible under certain conditions.
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Old 06-30-2012, 08:35 PM   #37
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13th-century Persia was a very progressive place for the time
huh? that was pretty much pre- and post- Mongol conquering time. right then it was pretty shitty place to live in. i mean, the mongols after they conquered stuff were pretty "liberal" but the Khwarezms etc. weren't really much different from their muslim counterparts, from what i remember (other than the lack of in-fighting... which, admittedly could make a pretty big difference :))...

naitz vs. quartzy. totally on quartzy's side. naitz obviously didn't do his history homework :P

p.s.: i'm personally against all forms of organized religion. ALL!

Last edited by ShadowHunter; 06-30-2012 at 08:37 PM..
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:13 PM   #38
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I think with most religions it's not necessarily the texts that should be scrutinised, but peoples interpretations of those texts and how those intepretations fit in with a greater society.

In my experience, practising Muslims can be some of the nicest people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by quartertone
Although major constraints on thought are inherent in all the monotheistic religions, the way they end up being practised depends on the society they're in. 13th-century Persia was a very progressive place for the time, with a pluralistic culture rather more open than in Iran today (thanks especially to CIA & MI6 in 1953), and was ahead of many European cultures in terms of scientific and cultural achievement. The Koran was the same then as it is now, but the society changed, and it's rather shocking to think that some Islamic societies today are actually more backward (by fairly modest standards) than in the Middle Ages. Needless to say, that's more a result of geopolitics and wars than something inherent in Middle Eastern people or their religion.
+1

Just like with any belief, you have the good believers and the bad believers. It all comes down to how they choose to interpret text, which is more often than not based on a person's character. Case in point: Christianity, the big clash between gay marriage vs. no gay marriage. It all comes down to how people interpret Leviticus 18:22/20:13, which is a headache in and of itself.
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Old 06-30-2012, 10:41 PM   #39
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I can believe that Islam is a 'peaceful' religion...but so is every other monotheistic religion, in theory at least. There are radical muslims just as there are radical christians etc (and no not the HARDCORERADIKUL kind). Ultimately it is how people interpret the sacred texts of their respective religions...

The media in the states presents a very poor depiction of muslims because of the war going on and I feel the hatred towards them is just lack of knowledge and the fear mongering by the media.

This thread could create quite the discussion and I'm curious to see how this goes!

I guess I should add, like everyone else, that I too dislike the Abrahamic religions.
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Old 06-30-2012, 10:52 PM   #40
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So many typical metalhead answers in this thread.

I think with most religions it's not necessarily the texts that should be scrutinised, but peoples interpretations of those texts and how those intepretations fit in with a greater society.

In my experience, practising Muslims can be some of the nicest people.
Well, let's be really honest, no one here has a massive in depth knowledge on the topic so what were you expecting? Don't hate on us for giving our views.
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Old 06-30-2012, 11:59 PM   #41
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I am not in favour of religion, full stop.

All children are intrinsically curious. "Why does x do y?" says the kid (this could be a factual question, or even a question about morality). Adults/parents can respond to this curiousity in two ways, and I think their response will fundamentally alter how the kid perceives the world from then on:

a) Observe, test your hypotheses, carry out experiments, deduce answers, further question the world.
b) A deity fabricated the universe, morality is dictated by respective texts.

The religious answer is, in comparison, simply a fundamentally flawed response to intrinsic curiousity IMO.

Islam is no different to any other religions in this aspect, though it seems that there is an increased predilection towards restricted views of the world and/or radical/violent manifestations of those views. There are plenty of complex issues associated with, and facilitated by, the mindsets that are engendered by religion – so I do not look upon any religious beliefs favourably.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:09 AM   #42
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I don't care what anyone else believes. Belief is a great coping mechanism, more power to people that use it. Religion seems illogical to me, which is unfortunate. What I have a problem with is extremism, regardless of the religion, because that can be dangerous. Whether it's the Taliban or Christians bombing abortion clinics, I have a big issue with extremism. Casual religion is fine by me.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:15 AM   #43
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The way I look at it is, I judge a religion on its fruits. Imo none of them are great, abrahamic religions gave us countless wars, hinduism the caste system. The only one I believe holds merit is buddhism. How many wars have buddhists started? How many times do they try and shove their beliefs down your throat? Imo Buddhism wins.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:17 AM   #44
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The way I look at it is, I judge a religion on its fruits.
No fruits allowed in Christianity tbh
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:18 AM   #45
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Zing.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:19 AM   #46
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Buddhists are not exempt to extremism.

Aum Shinrikyo were a heavily Buddhist-influenced terrorist group.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:21 AM   #47
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Didn't know about that, tell me more. I'm no expert.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:27 AM   #48
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Here's a wikipedia source you can read into.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo

But they performed a famous attack on a Tokyo subway station where they tried to kill everyone off with gas in 1995.

More detail on just the attack:
On the morning of 20 March 1995, Aum members released sarin in a co-ordinated attack on five trains in the Tokyo subway system, killing 13 commuters, seriously injuring 54 and affecting 980 more. Some estimates claim as many as 5,000 people were injured by the sarin. It is difficult to obtain exact numbers since many victims are reluctant to come forward.[17] Prosecutors allege that Asahara was tipped off about planned police raids on cult facilities by an insider, and ordered an attack in central Tokyo to divert attention away from the group. The plan evidently backfired, and the police conducted huge simultaneous raids on cult compounds across the country.[18]
Over the next week, the full scale of Aum's activities was revealed for the first time. At the cult's headquarters in Kamikuishiki on the foot of Mount Fuji, police found explosives, chemical weapons and biological warfare agents, such as anthrax and Ebola cultures, and a Russian Mil Mi-17 military helicopter. The Ebola virus was delivered from Zaire in 1994.[19] There were stockpiles of chemicals that could be used for producing enough sarin to kill four million people.[citation needed] Police also found laboratories to manufacture drugs such as LSD, methamphetamine, and a crude form of truth serum, a safe containing millions of dollars in cash and gold, and cells, many still containing prisoners. During the raids, Aum issued statements claiming that the chemicals were for fertilizers. Over the next six weeks, over 150 cult members were arrested for a variety of offenses. The media were stationed outside their Tokyo headquarters on Komazawa Dori in Aoyama for months after the attack and arrests waiting for action and to get images of the cult's other members.
On 30 March 1995, Takaji Kunimatsu, chief of the National Police Agency, was shot four times near his house in Tokyo, seriously wounding him. While many suspect Aum involvement in the shooting, the Sankei Shimbun reported that Hiroshi Nakamura is suspected of the crime, but nobody has been charged.[20]
While on the run, Asahara issued statements, one claiming that the Tokyo attacks were a ploy by the U.S. military to implicate the cult, and another threatening a disaster that "would make the Kobe Earthquake seem as minor as a fly landing on one's cheek" to occur on 15 April. The authorities took the threat seriously, declaring a state of emergency, stocking up hospitals with antidotes to nerve gas while chemical warfare specialists of the Self-Defence Force were put on standby.[citation needed] However, the day came and went with no incident.
On 23 April, Murai Hideo, the head of Aum's Ministry of Science, was stabbed to death outside the cult's Tokyo headquarters amidst a crowd of about 100 reporters, in front of cameras. The man responsible, a Korean member of Yamaguchi-gumi, was arrested and eventually convicted of the murder. His motive remains unknown.
On the evening of 5 May, a burning paper bag was discovered in a toilet in Shinjuku station in Tokyo, the busiest station in the world. Upon examination it was revealed that it was a hydrogen cyanide device which, had it not been extinguished in time, would have released enough gas into the ventilation system to potentially kill 20,000 commuters.[citation needed] Several undetonated cyanide devices were found at other locations in the Tokyo subway.[citation needed]
During this time, numerous cult members were arrested for various offenses, but arrests of the most senior members on the charge of the subway gassing had not yet taken place.
Shoko Asahara was finally found hiding within a wall of a cult building known as "The 6th Satian" in the Kamikuishiki complex on 16 May and was arrested. On the same day, the cult mailed a parcel bomb to the office of Yukio Aoshima, the governor of Tokyo, blowing off the fingers of his secretary's hand. Asahara was initially charged with 23 counts of murder as well as 16 other offenses. The trial, dubbed "the trial of the century" by the press, ruled Asahara guilty of masterminding the attack and sentenced him to death. The indictment was appealed unsuccessfully. A number of senior members accused of participation, such as Masami Tsuchiya, also received death sentences.
The reasons why a small circle of mostly senior Aum members committed atrocities and the extent of personal involvement by Asahara remain unclear to this day, although several theories have attempted to explain these events. In response to the prosecution's charge that Asahara ordered the subway attacks to distract the authorities' away from Aum, the defense maintained that Asahara was not aware of events, pointing to his deteriorating health condition. Shortly after his arrest, Asahara abandoned his post as the organization's leader, and since then has maintained silence, refusing to communicate even with lawyers and family members.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:35 AM   #49
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Well from reading that I wouldn't say they are buddhists. More like a cult who borrow from different religions and make a tossed salad out of it. It seems that allot of religions do that anyway so whatever.

Anyways, ok you got me ,buddhists aren't perfect either.
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Old 07-01-2012, 12:42 AM   #50
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terrorists.
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Old 07-01-2012, 02:23 AM   #51
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lol posting about religion on a death metal forum and not expecting grandstanding atheistic comments.
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:02 AM   #52
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^That may be true, but it doesn't make people less retarded at the end of the day.

Although I somewhat agree with most others here in terms of a final stance, most (not all) of the justifications for your overly-positive statements are typically ignorant as hell.

Also, lol at a dutch guy starting a thread on Islam.
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Old 07-01-2012, 03:36 AM   #53
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Also, lol at a dutch guy starting a thread on Islam.
oh shit.
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Old 07-01-2012, 04:35 AM   #54
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The Tokyo attack was carried out by a cult, I don't think you can call that Buddhism as such.

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How many wars have buddhists started?
Actually, the renunciation of the self and all desires that features in Buddhist thought is very amenable to totalitarian applications, something that was used by the imperial powers around the time of WW2. There's a book about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War

At the end of the day, any religion can be used to manipulate people if they believe that it provides an ultimate, irrefutable reason to do something.
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Old 07-01-2012, 05:52 AM   #55
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I don't care what anyone else believes. Belief is a great coping mechanism, more power to people that use it.
"more power"?! religion is the easy way out. out of all the "coping options", it's the one it requires the least effort and thought. fuck that shit. less power to them
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:16 AM   #56
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"practising Muslims can be some of the nicest people

"I can believe that Islam is a 'peaceful' religion...but so is every other monotheistic religion, in theory at least"

I don't totally disagree with these kinds of statements because I know many religious people who are very nice and I appreciate hearing their perspective. But I disagree at the point of considering them true believers of their religion. I think most sane religious people in any institution ignore the majority of the laws they need to follow simply because they are outdated, barbaric and morally wrong.

So, for example a Muslim man may not kill his child if they leave Islam or a Christian man might befriend a homosexual. Those are sins by their own standards and that is what a religion should be judged on. People are people and most can not live up to the violence and opression that religions expect from its followers. The books are very clear about a lot of issues but people instinctively know what is right/wrong in a peacful community. Nice religious people are often religious only because of tradition and the sense of community they get from going to pray.

The ugly fundementalists we see in every institution are the ones truly following the religion and the rest are guilty of cloaking violence and abuse as well as defending their rights, which in return, allows fundementalists the oppertunity to continue committing horrible crimes. This is why I can never truly respect a religious person of any kind. Even the nicest people are actually guilty of murder and child abuse in one way or another. Either they defend someone's right to kill a fag or they give money to the church on Sunday, where it goes to a priest's lawyer so he can stay out and fuck a few more kids... Moderates believers are guilty of defending horrible abusive crimes.

If someone can't find spirituality within themselves by themselves then they will never find it.
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:38 AM   #57
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huh? that was pretty much pre- and post- Mongol conquering time. right then it was pretty shitty place to live in.
Sure, in terms of the hardship you found everywhere, but in ideological terms it's interesting to compare East and West. A couple of years ago I translated a book about the Persian poet Attar (c. 1145-1221), who actually died during the Mongol invasion. His work is full of indictments of God, lamentation about the amount of suffering in the world and the cruelty of a God who would allow it. In Christian Europe at the same time, heresy of that kind would have guaranteed a painful death, but Attar, though not popular among all religious leaders, wasn't punished or persecuted for it. Similarly, Hafiz, another of the major Persian Sufi poets from the 14th century, railed against religious fundamentalists and extolled the pleasures of wine and drunkenness. A culture where that was tolerated was, in certain respects, more liberal than tne Europe of the time and Iran today.
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:46 AM   #58
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The most pathetically backward religion of them all.


Not quite.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:23 AM   #59
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lol at everyone always complaining about Vriend and still his threads are always a big success! hehe
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:31 AM   #60
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lol at everyone always complaining about Vriend and still his threads are always a big success! hehe
You should hire him as a PR manager.
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